Your Body, Elevated: The Tech Making Every Outfit Your Best Fit | Janice Tam
Jen Porter (00:00)
Hey, Lioness, welcome to the show, Lioness Conversations, where we help women be brave, to lead with confidence and joy, and to find your path to the most meaningful work of your life. I'm your host, Jen Porter, leadership and empowerment coach for ambitious and heart-centered women who are ready to change the world. You can find out more at jenportercoach.com, and you can find out how to join the Lioness community. You can also nominate someone or yourself.
for the podcast. Today, I'm honored to introduce Janice Tam, co-founder and CEO of True to Form, a groundbreaking body scanning and fit prediction software platform, making well-fitting clothing accessible at scale for everyone. Driven by her own experience searching for a beautiful and unique fit for her own body, Janice is transforming the fashion industry by empowering brands with precision body data.
ensuring the right fit the first time and building a more inclusive and sustainable future. Janice, welcome to the show.
Janice Tam (01:06)
Thanks so much, Jen, appreciate the kind introduction.
Jen Porter (01:09)
So I'm really excited to share all this with our listeners because it's such a profound invention that you have endeavored. And so first, just tell people, what is this? What is True to Form? Where did it come from? And I guess we'll get to your story, kind of the backstory in a minute, but just tell them like what it is and what you're focused on right now.
Janice Tam (01:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. So True to Form is a 3D body scanning and size prediction software company. Our goal is to really give brands access to precise body data on every customer shopping their site so that they can deliver the right fit the first time. And so we do that through a scanning application that we've developed fully in-house. And it's the way that a customer can get their own measurements from a simple rotational scan on their own smartphone or their tablet.
And then for brands looking to deliver custom fit clothing or made to measure clothing, they can use our measurement system to measure their customers remotely using the application and receive over 60 measurements from every scan. Yes. And for brands like regular e-commerce brands that are selling standard sizes, small, medium, large, we have e-commerce integrations that take the technology a step further. So not only are we getting
Jen Porter (02:13)
60? Wow.
Janice Tam (02:28)
customer measurements from the scanning system. We're also matching it up against the brand's sizing data and providing a visual recommended size for that customer when they're shopping on their site.
Jen Porter (02:39)
Wow, wow. Okay, so I love this for, mean, how much online shopping do we do these days? Right? It's always, it feels like a gamble because every company's a little bit different. Even sizing can be different. Yeah. know, product to product. And so...
Janice Tam (02:46)
It's everything. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (02:58)
I love that you've created this because it gives us so many more options to find a beautiful fit because that's really what we feel good in is when our clothes fit well and you know when we have clothes that we enjoy wearing we feel better. We have a better day.
Janice Tam (03:11)
Absolutely. And
I think brands are doing a really good job of catering to different body shapes now, but as a consumer, it can be very overwhelming when you're shopping from brand to brand, since there's so much variation in how a brand creates their sizing. Oftentimes brands are kind of just guessing at what the body shape and size is of their target demographic and creating their sizing standard based on that guess. And so how do you then interpret that as a consumer? Right. And so
Our goal is really to reduce that friction in understanding every brand sizing when you're shopping a brand for the first time.
Jen Porter (03:46)
So I'm imagining that there'd be greater confidence from the buyer that the clothing is gonna fit. And then there's greater confidence from the company because they know that they're tailoring using this technology so that the customer's gonna be happier. I'm guessing there's fewer returns. What are you finding?
Janice Tam (04:08)
Yeah, so the results we're seeing are really strong so far. So absolutely the first leading performance indicator for us is conversion. So what that means is what percent of shoppers coming to your page are actually purchasing your product. Of course, that's going to be really important. Once you're getting all that traffic to your site, that's the hard part. But then how do you take full advantage of the traffic coming to your site? And so what we're seeing with some of the brands that we're working with is nearly a 4X conversion lift with one of our menswear brands.
Jen Porter (04:22)
Okay.
Janice Tam (04:37)
a 175 % conversion lift with one of our bridesmaid gown companies. so shoppers really, know, fit is one of those things where it can really put you on the fence on whether or not you're going to purchase.
Jen Porter (04:48)
That is incredible. It's incredible for all parties involved. You want happier customers and companies want to make revenue. They want to sell more of the products. So what else are you seeing as you share this with more businesses and getting customer reactions? What other data are you able to find about how this is impacting both on the company side and the customer side?
Janice Tam (04:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So when brands are just starting out, conversion is everything. But as you grow as a brand and you get more more volume, that's really where the returns problem becomes a bigger and bigger economic problem. So it really impacts your bottom line. And what we're finding in the latest data that just came in is we're driving a 59 % reduction in returns for shoppers that actually engage with our size prediction widget.
So that has huge implications, of course, for brands. And so not only are we kind of driving top line revenue for the brand, we're also helping with their bottom line as well and making sure that those sales are actually converting to orders that stay with that customer.
Jen Porter (05:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Incredible. So where did this come from? How did this work? And you being willing enough to say, I'm actually gonna go for this.
Janice Tam (05:58)
Yeah, so...
Yeah, I'm really lucky to be building with my co-founder, Margaret. She's our CTO and the smartest person I know. We actually happen to be sisters. So very lucky to be essentially born in my family with a CTO. And we're only 15 months apart in age. We're both five one. And so very petite and fit squarely within the definition of what we call the hard to fit apparel categories.
So that includes petite's like ourselves, but also plus sizes, full or busted, big and tall individuals. If you ask any consumer more than likely they're going to categorize themselves as a hard to fit shopper. And so this was something that we have a personal passion for. And it started when I was in business school was really where we got the idea for building something like this.
At the time, Margaret, our CTO, she was just finishing up her fifth year at Apple as a senior emotion engineer. And so she saw the new technologies kind of come out in AI and computer vision, smartphone technology. And we really saw an opportunity to build something to solve a personal problem of our own. The long story of it actually was we were originally going to manufacture our own custom dress forms.
to alter our own clothes on. So we couldn't find a mannequin or a dress form that we could use to sew our clothes and make it match our body proportions, because we're so petite. And so Margaret was like, hey, we can build a scanning software to create a 3D replica of our torso, 3D print it, and then manufacture these dress forms to solve our own problem. So that was actually how we built our initial prototype. It was effectively a virtual replica of your torso that looked like a dress form.
Jen Porter (07:33)
Okay.
Janice Tam (07:46)
It was in 3D and we were looking to potentially manufacture it. But this was a wake of COVID. We were showing it to different people in the industry and they said, hey, we want like a full body avatar, not just the torso. We want to be able to drape clothing on it. We want it to get measurements. We want it to provide size recommendations. And so that's how it evolved, thankfully, from what was originally a manufacturing idea to a fully software based business.
Jen Porter (08:09)
Wow. What was your shopping experience like before all of this? Before business school, growing up, for your sister?
Janice Tam (08:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
So for me, I always tend to get really overwhelmed in the stores. So it feels like there's so much selection and I really don't love the try on experience in store. But then when you go online, it's almost worse because you get decision fatigue. So there's so many products now, so many different brands and a lot of really new, exciting brands that have come out that are targeting specific body shapes. So really cool to see ones that are focused on petite women, for example.
ones that are focused on big and tall men. But the question is when you haven't ever shopped them in person before, you might not be as confident in how that product is going to fit. And so.
Jen Porter (08:54)
Yeah. So was there a training
experience for you? mean, would just, would you tailor your own stuff? What did you do?
Janice Tam (09:01)
Yeah, so Margaret would definitely tailor her own stuff. So she had a sewing machine. And so she was really the one who was really interested in this idea of creating a custom dress form, sewing our own clothes, fixing them. Whenever I had issues, I would just bring them to Margaret and she would fix them for me. And so for me, I would do a lot of the returning myself if I purchased online because half the stuff wouldn't fit.
Jen Porter (09:26)
Nah.
Janice Tam (09:26)
And
Margaret, her experience with subscription boxes is she would get a whole box of items that were supposed to be tailored to her style. From a style perspective, they were spot on. She loved all of the pieces. But from a fit perspective, nine out of 10 would not fit and she would send nine back and keep one. So that's really where... That's right.
Jen Porter (09:42)
Wow. Yeah, even though she loved them, they did.
And so when did you start the business?
Janice Tam (09:50)
We started in the beginning of 2021. So I was in business school at the time. So I was a full-time student and was kind of incubating this business while at business school. Actually a great time to start exploring because we had all of those resources built for students. had professors who I could really lean on, ask questions of. At that time I was really just in the customer discovery phase and
Margaret was building out all of the IP for the business. So she really took the deep dive. She was like, okay, I'm going to quit this job at Apple. I'm going to start building out the IP. We're going to start writing out the patents for this. It wasn't really sellable at that point. So from my, from the business side of things, I was trying to talk to as many people as I could just to make sure there was a market for the technology we were developing.
Jen Porter (10:36)
So
who were you talking to? How did you figure that out?
Janice Tam (10:39)
So at first we went to 3D designers. So 3D fashion design was just an emerging industry at that time. know, CAD software programs, which are these 3D programs where you can create 3D renderings of garments and drape them on 3D mannequins. Those had actually been around for a while, but they were really not taking off until COVID. So end of 2020, 2021, all of a sudden,
fashion schools were starting to incorporate 3D design into their curriculums. And tailors were desperately looking for a way to measure their customers remotely. And there was this whole new wave of 3D technical designers that were really willing to be helpful. So I actually, we reached out to one of the guilds of 3D technical designers and we almost got 100 % response rate from just a cold outreach on email, which is really surprising.
But one of the benefits of kind of building something in an emerging industry at the time in 3D design. So we spoke with those leaders. We spoke with top professors, fashion schools, and we really used fashion schools as a way to test out and kind of beta test, provide feedback on our product as it was still in development.
Jen Porter (11:55)
Was COVID just a big driver for all the online shopping that was happening?
Janice Tam (12:01)
Oh, absolutely.
So e-commerce, clothing e-commerce, just went like skyrocketed after COVID. And so previously, e-commerce was really not a big percentage of overall clothing sales. But post-COVID, it's just been growing and growing, and it's not really going to come back. Of course, there's always going to be a place for in-store shopping. But the consumer is so much more comfortable shopping online now that
Jen Porter (12:23)
Yeah.
Janice Tam (12:28)
It's not something that you can ignore as a brand.
Jen Porter (12:31)
So you don't see that changing. You think it'll continue to stay online.
Janice Tam (12:35)
Absolutely. At least a part of it. know that, you know, with there's always going to be omni channel components. So a lot of the largest brands are going to have an in-person presence, but e-commerce is always going to be another main driver, especially as a way to communicate directly with your customer. With social media becoming so important, having a D to C channel, so direct to consumer channel where you're selling directly to your consumer, you're building a brand, you're connecting with your customer.
that's always gonna be a part of the brand story.
Jen Porter (13:08)
You know, I'm just thinking about how shopping malls are kind of dying, right? I mean, I guess there are certain outdoor malls that are still doing really well, but like the traditional mall that you walk into and all the stores are inside. mean, they've been suffering for years and years.
Janice Tam (13:11)
Mm-hmm.
It's true. And area where I live, feel like every week I get, I see a news article saying another store has closed in the Minneapolis area. And so yeah, it's definitely the case. I think people don't love as much to go into the mall setting to find items because it's kind of like a treasure hunt. It's really hard to find things that are going to fit you, fit your style, fit your size. so I think definitely online is a more convenient option.
Jen Porter (13:50)
Yeah, and it's just not always a great experience for so many reasons. But what are you, so I'm thinking about, you know, the sort of the psyche of particularly women, know, when this is made for women, the podcast that is not, your brand is made for all. But I'm thinking about how hard it is for women to find clothing, to feel great in their clothing, to,
Janice Tam (13:54)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (14:13)
know how to put pieces together and make a great outfit, but also just the psychology of the relationship with our bodies. How much is at play when it comes to a purchase and customer feeling good? What have you discovered in all of this research and in working with particularly women that what have you learned about women?
Janice Tam (14:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
So I think that sizing and fit for all consumers, but especially women is quite emotional. you kind of, if you try a brand for the first time and you love the style, but you try it on and it doesn't fit you, that's an emotional experience and that's like not an emotionally good experience. Oftentimes that may make you never try that brand again. You might not have the patience to go back and try another size. And so you, a lot of times only have one chance to
Jen Porter (14:45)
Yeah.
Janice Tam (15:07)
have a good emotional connection with that customer for the first time, like making sure that she feels really confident when she tries your brand for the first time. She feels that it kind of fits her body in the way that it should. so that's definitely a theme that I hear over and over again. We talk to consumers all the time to make sure that the experience we're building is something that they would feel comfortable with.
And it's of course a tricky space, right? We're talking about a body scanning system. And while we don't force a scan, there's always the option for size prediction to enter your own measurements if you prefer. And we'll create a 3D model based on your measurements and based on thousands of actual body scan data. So you don't have to take a scan if you don't want to. ⁓ It is a visual representation, right? It's a 3D model of what your body shape looks like. And it's a tricky balance to provide something that is
Jen Porter (15:37)
Yeah.
Okay.
Interesting, okay.
Janice Tam (15:59)
like educational enough to inform your purchase, but also something that doesn't create an emotionally bad experience as well.
Jen Porter (16:07)
Yeah,
I love that optionality of having, know, doing that body scan. So you have a video that you you turn around, right, and have your whole body scanned. So cool that you can just do it on your smartphone. But also, if somebody's not comfortable with that for whatever reason, or they don't have the technology for it, whatever, they could enter their measurements. And so are there really 60 that they would enter?
Janice Tam (16:24)
Mm-hmm.
So no, so we don't force them to enter the 60. So you just enter your basic bust, hip measurements and your kind of like your gender, your age, your height, and we'll generate a full 3D body model that does reflect over those 60 measurements, right? So you're creating a full 3D rendering based on those entered measurements that you have put in. And then we reflect back, not just a black box, hey, your size medium, trust us.
We show you all the different sizes. You can toggle between them and see how their product fits in different sizes based on your style preference as well.
Jen Porter (17:05)
Interesting. So if you're putting in your measurements, then the technology is assuming some things about the way that you're going to look. So you're going to get more precision if you're doing the body scan. Okay, yeah. And I would assume people would want that.
Janice Tam (17:12)
Yes.
That's correct. Absolutely.
Especially if you don't have a measuring tape at home or you don't know how to measure yourself, you know?
Jen Porter (17:26)
Right? Yeah.
So what else? So you've talked to the fashion schools, you've talked to brands. What about the consumers themselves? What's the engagement been like in understanding the consumer mindset?
Janice Tam (17:39)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so we've done a lot of experimentation to figure out how we want to connect with the consumer, because at the end of the day, we're a B2B2C company, and that our customers, our paying customers and who we sell to are the brands. And it's always going to be free for customers to interact with our tools. But we want to make sure that we're creating a really positive experience for the end user. And so what we've done actually is we've
We run continuous UX studies. So we have a UX researcher on our team. Her name is Perry. And she runs continuous UX studies with consumers to make sure that the scanning experience is as user-friendly as possible. There are so many different scenarios that you can scan in that you have to account for. And so over the few years of developing, we've built in advanced scan guidance to make sure you're conducting the scan.
in the right way, you're not too far from the screen, you're not too close to the screen. If you move out of frame or if you don't complete the full 10 second spin in place with your phone, place that floor level, we actually automatically prompt you to restart the scan. And so all of those things have been built in over time into our scanning experience. And then for our website integrations, we also run separate usability tests to make sure that
This is an easy to understand way to add a scan into the size prediction, enter your own measurements and get results.
Jen Porter (19:06)
I'm so excited about the product and I think the listeners are probably so excited to use this. It can only be helpful and have better fit, more confidence in what we're buying and the likelihood that we get at home and try it on and it fits is really, really high. So let's just pause and let people know how to find this. Where can they use it today?
Janice Tam (19:14)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah!
Jen Porter (19:29)
And then
know you're probably, I mean, you're only going to grow and grow grow and have more and more partnerships, but today, how can they use it?
Janice Tam (19:35)
Yeah, so one of the brand partnerships that we just recently launched is with Desi Group, which is a bridesmaid gown company. And if you go to the Desi Group website and you look at the body scan option, you can go ahead and take a scan. And then once your scan is created, you'll receive an email saying your measurements are in. And when you go and shop any of their styles, the size recommendation will populate automatically for all of their styles across their website.
And then for any men watching, Jordan Craig is one of our e-commerce brand partners and our size prediction software is also implemented across their site. So if you shop any of their hoodies or their pants, you'll see a widget that says, find your best size on their product pages. You can click that widget and you'll be guided through the process to get your size prediction.
Jen Porter (20:24)
That's so cool. And so what would make a company engage with the product? Because I mean, it seems like there's so many benefits. It's like, why would companies not do this? Why would brands not do this? But is it like customer demand? Or what would make them say, OK, we're going to try this technology?
Janice Tam (20:29)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. For the brands that are like the best fit for what we're looking for, they are really struggling to get conversions on their site because maybe they have very specific product measurements and their product descriptions, really detailed size guides on their websites, but they're so long, they're so detailed, customers don't understand how to interpret them, and they're losing the customer at that point. Maybe they're getting a lot of new traffic to their site, people who haven't shopped their brand before.
and they're really struggling with that conversion piece. They come to us for that reason. The other reason is brands that are really struggling with really high return rates. So return rates for e-commerce are upwards of 40 % or higher. In some cases, we see even 60 % return rates. so return logistics are just extremely expensive for any brand. And so as brands grow in size, they often have whole individuals responsible for bringing down that return rate metric by just
a couple basis points. And so anything helps. So if you can bring the return rate down by a couple percentage points, if you can increase conversion rate by just a couple basis points, that has huge implications for the financials of that company. And so those are probably the two biggest reasons that brands kind of seek us out. And then the other is, you know, sometimes we get brands coming to us because their customer service team is just completely overwhelmed. They get
requests every day. And this is something we hear from one of our brand partners Dovetail Workwear that we're launching with soon. They get multiple sizing questions to their site every day and they have live agents that are trying to help them sort through it. And so their process of helping guide customer size selection is talking with them on the phone, asking, like what's your measurement? And then looking at the style they're interested in and doing the manual mapping and trying to
Jen Porter (22:35)
Now.
Janice Tam (22:36)
provide back, given your measurements, this style and the specifications we know for this style, we recommend a size medium, a size large, whatever it is. Yeah, and that's the norm. That's what most brands are doing. So it's a very manual process and all we're doing is really automating that process for them.
Jen Porter (22:45)
That's really old system, isn't it?
Wow.
and making it so much more accurate.
Janice Tam (23:01)
Mm-hmm, that's right.
Jen Porter (23:02)
Wow. What are you hearing back from the companies that have implemented this?
Janice Tam (23:06)
Yeah, so we're hearing really positive feedback so far. This size prediction tool is a brand new release actually just released at beginning of this year. So we have, we're working with a select group of about 10 companies in pilot programs and doing full rollouts across a number of those brands now. And so with the conversion data we're seeing, the impact on returns we're seeing, we're hearing that this is a technology that really changes the game for them.
A lot of these companies have been searching for a solution that works for many years. They're not kind of new to this. They've tried everything under the sun, the older kind of size recommendation surveys that ask you, what's your closest size in American Eagle to give you your best size recommendation at Zara. And those unfortunately lean on other brand sizing. don't drill down either to the individual level. So they don't capture your actual individual body shape, your dimensions. So there's a lot of missing information.
And so for us, we understand that fit is so personal. So if you don't have a grasp on what the customer body shape actually looks like, and you don't have a grasp on what the brand sizing looks like, then you can really only move the needle so far.
Jen Porter (24:15)
Right. Incredible. I think everybody should check it out. And I'm thinking about it from the consumer standpoint of like putting pressure on these brands to be like, need this. Please, please try this out and see how it'll impact the sales and really just happiness of the customers. I I do want to talk about entrepreneurship next, but do you measure qualitative?
Janice Tam (24:22)
Yes!
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (24:36)
know, customer satisfaction. Is that something that you're looking at or is the brand looking at that but they may share that data with you?
Janice Tam (24:43)
Yeah, so we do look at customer satisfaction with the scanning software. We have feedback surveys that go out to anyone who submits a scan asking for ratings and making sure from a usability standpoint and ease of use that it's working well for them. And then we also track that from the brand perspective, especially making sure that the measurements coming back are accurate, that the data coming back is accurate as well. ⁓
Jen Porter (25:07)
Yeah,
yeah, I would think this would be showing up in reviews of people's experience of using the body scan.
Janice Tam (25:13)
Yeah, it's
a really good idea. You we haven't done too much in terms of like qualitative collection of feedback and surfacing it, but that's definitely something that we want to spend more time and energy on because while we have all of these quantitative results that are just coming in, that's going to be next piece to really build out the whole story.
Jen Porter (25:31)
Well, I could see
that being so important because to your point about these being emotional decisions that are being made when people are buying clothing and then getting them home, that's an emotional experience too. Like, I'm excited about this thing, I wouldn't have bought it if I wasn't excited about it and then to try it on and like the fit or not the fit. We all know what it feels like to put on something that fits like a glove and you're like, I feel amazing. So I would think that the qualitative.
Janice Tam (25:54)
Hahaha
Jen Porter (25:58)
feedback would be really important, not only for that brand, but also for other brands to realize, this is like a game changer.
Janice Tam (26:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I love that. That's great advice.
Jen Porter (26:08)
So what is it like to be a female founder and entrepreneur?
Janice Tam (26:13)
It's been quite interesting. We try not to focus too much on the limitations, of course, of being a female founder, but sometimes there are certain areas where it becomes obviously brought to light. So raising capital in some cases or the difficulty in getting certain things done in a way that probably would be easier if we had a
at least like a mixed team, but we're a team that's like fully female founded. So me and my sister are running this company as the two co-founders. It's primarily a female led team. And we've actually have found a lot of success in that. And we really kind of focus on empowering ourselves to be kind of a, I don't know, like a model for how you can be successful as entrepreneurs while being women and really leaning into that.
Jen Porter (26:41)
Okay.
Janice Tam (27:04)
I think there are some parts of being in kind of female entrepreneurship communities that all lift each other up. And so both in business school and post business school, I found kind of female founder communities that have been so, so helpful like to me. Yeah, yes.
Jen Porter (27:20)
Well, that's how we got connected, right? Through a fellow
lioness, Stephanie, right, Stephanie Fungham. So yeah, I'm so with you on that. I find that there's so much empowerment in community. And I just hang out with women who lift each other up. That's just, that's what I'm about and that's what I attract.
Janice Tam (27:26)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (27:41)
There's so much goodness when we support each other and celebrate each other and cheer each other on because there's some really hard days and when we have people that still believe in us when we're questioning our we have our own self-doubt you know we need those people around us to help carry us through those harder seasons.
Janice Tam (27:47)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. There's so much resilience involved in entrepreneurship. You never get so many rejections in your life, right? And so it's so important to have a community to lean on, to have other founders who are going through a similar journey that can kind of resonate with the problems you're going through and kind of keep you pushing along. so
Jen Porter (28:18)
When have you had to be the bravest? Like your lioness energy, know, which I consider to be feminine strength and grace and power. When has that really had to come out in your own journey as an entrepreneur?
Janice Tam (28:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Yeah, I would say that
especially when we were just starting out with the customer discovery phases and we weren't exactly sure how to position our products. We had to be brave quite a few times. Every two weeks, it would be a little bit of a moment where my co-founder and I would look at each other and be like, are we doing the right thing? Like, are we heading in the right direction? And it really is a big risk to kind of continue to do that and pursue it, especially full time after business school.
when giving up other opportunities that were, you my prior career dream opportunities that I was looking at that I originally had applied to go to business school for.
Jen Porter (29:10)
Well, and I wanna hear more about that in a minute, but you're a sister quit her job at Apple. I mean, that was a big risk that she took. Well, I'm curious about that. I think people have a perception of what one has to have or believe about themselves in order to step into founding a company or starting a business. And the truth is there's a lot of moments of self-doubt.
Janice Tam (29:12)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (29:36)
Right? And so when you were in those moments every couple of weeks with Margaret, what was that really like for you? If you could go back in time, kind of make that come alive for women, because honestly, that's part of what holds women back is the fear, the doubts about taking those risks. And I think sometimes we feel like if we're questioning ourselves, we must not be in the right place.
Janice Tam (29:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, questioning is a whole part of the journey and questioning is actually healthy, right? You want to make sure that at every stage of your journey, you're not just proceeding, like walking forward and going down potentially a wrong path. And it's really tough in entrepreneurship because you kind of are the judge of whether you're hitting your own milestones and if you're hitting them fast enough and if you're getting the traction that you deserve to see. Everybody else has opinions. Everyone can talk to you for...
Jen Porter (30:12)
Yeah.
Janice Tam (30:26)
15 minutes and say, hey, that is a really bad idea or hey, that's an amazing idea. But really nobody knows as well as like you and your co-founders really. And so for us, it was honestly like every two weeks we would have these really long discussions, times where we had to really be honest with ourselves and determine whether or not it was moving in the right path, whether we were kind of indications that what we were.
doing was successful and that we're heading in the right direction, that there was a market for it, that we're building something that not somebody else had built already. And for us, it was about making progress along the way and making sure we had momentum. That was what helped me be brave was looking through, looking at the past two weeks, past month, past quarter, being like, okay, what were we able to achieve in that time? And does that lead us to believe we're moving down the right path or do we need to pivot?
Jen Porter (31:03)
Mm.
Yeah.
love what you're saying, what's standing out to me is the words progress and momentum. Because those, they're a bit measurable for sure, but they're also subjective. what I find, you tell me if this resonates, like.
Janice Tam (31:24)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (31:33)
For me and a lot of the female founders that I work with, those milestones, we end up needing to move those things. Because we didn't hit what we thought we were gonna hit in the timeframe we were gonna hit. And that can feel really deflating, but it's just a matter of needing to re-evaluate. And I love what you're saying about, am I making progress? Do we have the momentum that we need to get to that next step?
Janice Tam (31:59)
Right. And for me and so true to for us too, because Margaret and myself, we're just very optimistic people. So we more than often overestimate like how quickly we can get something done, how quickly we can hit that milestone. We're like, we can fix this technical problem in one month. And 60 days later, you know, we're still not even halfway through. And that's a very common thing because I think entrepreneurship entrepreneurs are
Jen Porter (32:00)
What's it been like for you? Yeah.
Hahaha
Janice Tam (32:27)
historically, they're very optimistic people, or else why would we be building? And so that happens all the time. And it's really about kind of looking back and be like, okay, was that original goal realistic? Are we working? Like, does it look like there is an end to this? And where we achieve that milestone? And are we moving in the right direction or not? Being really honest with yourself, but it's a really challenging thing. And it's not like it's solved for us today. We do that today now too, all the time.
Jen Porter (32:38)
Mm-hmm.
Janice Tam (32:56)
doing quick check-ins with each other to ask whether we're moving in the right direction, whether we're building it fast enough. As the company progresses, the goal posts always get harder. They move, they get bigger, you feel like you need to move faster. And so when you're first building out, it's like you put out a website, you're like, yes, we did something. There's a lot of small things that really help build that momentum. And you can win a competition and you feel amazing.
Jen Porter (33:05)
Yeah.
Janice Tam (33:21)
as you become a bigger company, then it really becomes, okay, this is really supposed to be a business. We have to be making money here. We need to make this sustainable. And it becomes really real, especially as the opportunity costs that you're giving up become bigger and bigger.
Jen Porter (33:33)
Yeah, I'm curious about the relationship between you and your sister. Did you have a business before? Is this your first business together?
Janice Tam (33:40)
This is our first business together. I've always wanted to work with my sister. So yes.
Jen Porter (33:44)
You did. How did you
know that you would be a good payer? In business, that is.
Janice Tam (33:48)
So
yes, we are very different people. It's very funny. We're very close in age, but very different areas of expertise. And we trust each other fully. I think that's really the key. Margaret is truly the smartest person I know. I don't know anybody better on this planet. She went to Princeton for undergrad for engineering, then got a master's in engineering. She has many patents under her name. She is just like the...
quickest researcher, she can like get caught up on like a whole new idea and AI in like two seconds. And so I trust her as an engineer more than I would trust anyone else. And I think having that trust in the partner you're working with is so, so important. And on my side, like I do all kinds of business and commercial side of things, and Margaret has no interest in that. And that's actually perfect, because then there's really no kind of like fighting or overlap between our different lanes. We fully kind of wholly trust each other on
are two different areas. And so I think that's why we work so well together.
Jen Porter (34:44)
That's incredible. How do you handle conflict? And has it strained your relationship? I think it would strain most any relationship being in business and having so much at stake.
Janice Tam (34:55)
Luckily, we've had decades and decades of learning how to fight with each other, right? We used to play piano duets together. So, you know, if you can get through a piano duet practice, then you can get through anything. So I would say something about my family and working with Margaret is that we know how to fight very quickly and get over it and move on. so communication has always been one of our, I think, strengths.
Jen Porter (34:59)
I know.
Janice Tam (35:20)
And when you kind of look at siblings, I think it can go either way, like either they can communicate really well or really poorly. And luckily, just the way that we were always near each other growing up, we really know how to communicate. And we can fight, but it is really quick. We don't hold grudges. We move on. And yeah, we're very forgiving to each other.
Jen Porter (35:38)
skill. That's amazing.
I love to hear that. So tell us what's next. What are you working on that people won't see yet but is in the works? And what's your vision for where you would love for this to be in a year or two years or longer?
Janice Tam (35:54)
Yeah, so we have a lot of exciting things in the works. For us right now, my near term focus next couple of months is spreading the awareness of this new size prediction software we just launched. It brings our technology, which was previously in a pretty niche area of custom suiting, custom bridle, like custom apparel to something that can really, for the first time, influence everyday shoppers. Not everyone is buying a custom suit every week. So we're really excited about this opportunity in the market that we're entering now.
And that's definitely something that's been a learning curve for me is putting on my sales hat for the first time and really going out and like selling to brands, getting out there, doing outreach to different brands that I think could be good partners for us. But from a product standpoint, we have some really exciting, some developments in the works in terms of bringing in the new generative AI models out there and really up leveling the visuals in our software.
and providing an engaging consumer experience, an interactive consumer experience. It's a really fun time to be building in this space right now because of the new technologies that just come out constantly and they just make it easier for us to build. They make it more efficient for us to build. so that's what we have to look forward to.
Jen Porter (37:06)
Is Margaret doing all the iterations on the technology side?
Janice Tam (37:10)
She is head of R &D, so she had a lot on her plate. Yes, she leads up all of the R &D. We do have a developer that's full time with us as well that does a lot of the front end work, and so he's a core part of our team. But it is a really lean, scrappy team. We have to be extremely cost efficient.
Jen Porter (37:26)
Hmm, so I wanna explain to the audience just so that they understand exactly what it is and for me as well. So the body scan, you would go to a brand that offers you, that has built in your software and we would use our own smartphone to rotate ourselves 360 degrees and that captures 60 measurements that are then gonna help us.
see on the site how the clothing would fit our body. And it also takes that 3D image and you can overlay the product on that body form. it's not.
Janice Tam (37:57)
That's right.
That's what's coming up. So that's the piece
that's in development. Right now, the software does not overlay the garment because we're not kind of like the AR, VR, Warby Parker kind of try on. Like really our core competency, our core focus is accuracy and fit first, and then all of the aesthetic draping and engagement tools second. And I think that's really what differentiates us from the other players in the market that have gone first to the AR, VR.
Jen Porter (38:11)
Okay.
Janice Tam (38:31)
engagement, Snapchat filter type of tools that kind sell for an entirely different objective, which is does this style fit my aesthetic, but it doesn't have a level of fit accuracy to it. So for us, our first product really focuses on, we show you the full 3D model that you've built, and we show you at key landmarks of the body based on the product sizing. So bus waist hip, for example, how does that product fit for that recommended size?
And we also show you where hemlines fall. So sleeve lengths, top lengths. ⁓
Jen Porter (38:58)
Well, that's what I wanted you to talk about too because I think those
are the areas that we often don't find that fit and we kind of either just live with it or send it back. So you're talking about like how it hits at your wrist, at the ankles, like what are some other of those 60 measurements that we might not normally think of because we think of the main three that we be having in mind about the fit.
Janice Tam (39:10)
on the body. That's right.
Yes, so.
Yeah, I think the garment lengths are really important. As somebody who's 5'1", pants, I need to know whether they're going to be dragging on the floor five inches past my feet. And so that's definitely something for pants we really like to show is where are the pants going to fit on your body. And for sleeve lengths, oftentimes you have people, you might be like, average quote unquote with your body shape, but then your arms might be shorter or longer or
Maybe your proportions of your torso are taller or shorter than like even looking between me and my sister were both 5'1", but our proportions are completely different. So that's really where a tool like this can really help you determine for a blouse, how is that going to fit against your torso for pants? How is it going to fit against your legs? And that's what's really helpful. On top of that, you can, again, toggle between different sizes. So if you're recommended a size medium, for example,
but you prefer your tops to be a little bit oversized, you can select a size large and everything updates. So you'll see the hemlines fall a little bit longer. You'll see how that product is going to fit if you were to pick the larger size. And you can use that to guide your size selection.
Jen Porter (40:31)
And
so what is that visual that I'm looking at? Because I'm thinking about the overlay when I think about what you're describing. What are we seeing right now currently when we use that body scan tool and you're saying the difference between the sizes we can see it?
Janice Tam (40:35)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so the interface looks like the 3D model and there's two systems of visuals that you'll see. On one side, you'll see the fit landmarks. So there'll be a little bubble like bust, waist, hip. You'll see the points at which we're providing you with whether it's going to be just right, tight, snug, loose, very loose, for example. And then on the other side, you'll see the hemline indicators. And so you'll see dotted lines.
for where that sleeve length is gonna hit on your arm. So if it's a short sleeve, you're gonna see exactly where on your arm it's gonna fit. If it's a longer sleeve, you'll see the ending of the hem. And then also for pants and for the top length, you'll see dotted lines for where that product is gonna fit on your body. So while it's not quite an overlay, we are moving in that direction, of course, but right now the hemline indicators and the fit prediction indicators we found from our research is already moving the needle and helping consumers feel confident in sizing.
Jen Porter (41:39)
So
cool Janice, I love it. I can't wait for this to be everywhere. So how do we support you in this? What can listeners do to help you elevate the awareness about this and get it with more brands?
Janice Tam (41:42)
Thanks so much.
Yes, so if you have a favorite brand that you shop, absolutely let's put pressure on those brands to up-level their e-commerce sites and bring visual size guidance to their site. You can look, you can explore about our tools at our website at truetoform.fit. that's t-r-u-e-t-o-f-o-r-m.fit. And that's where you'll see an overview of all of our solutions and you can direct.
your friends that site if you know anybody who works in e commerce works at a fashion brand works at a retailer or brand we'd love any recommendations you guys have
Jen Porter (42:30)
Okay, awesome. And anything else that you want the audience to know about how to find you or promote this or engage with the tool?
Janice Tam (42:39)
Yeah, so you can also check out our app. So we have a web application you can access at web.truetoform.fit And you just head there on your browser using your smartphone or your tablet, and you can try out the scanning experience. If you have any feedback for us, we're always so open to that. So we're always trying to improve the usability of our scanning system.
send me a note, there'll be a contact us button on the app where you can send in your feedback. We're always looking to collect that. So feel free to try it out yourself and you'll also be able to get your measurements that way. yes.
Jen Porter (43:09)
my gosh, that's amazing. Yeah, definitely, well yeah.
So it tells you everything based on the body scan?
Janice Tam (43:17)
Yeah, so if you wanted, let's say you needed to get your measurements to go shopping, for example, you can get the app, take the scan, and then you'll be able to access the measurements you need for shopping. And then you can feel free if you're working with a tailor or a stylist, you can use the app to send your measurements to that person you're working with.
Jen Porter (43:35)
think we're under informed about our own measurements. Like if somebody says, you know what you're inseam like, I don't know. So it's so empowering. mean, that's what I love about having information and tools that help us be more empowered in every aspect of our life and work. It builds confidence and it makes us more effective. It saves us time. I mean, there's all kinds of benefits. And this is just one example.
Janice Tam (43:39)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. No idea. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (44:04)
of how to be more empowered in how we show up in the world with our outfits.
Janice Tam (44:08)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, absolutely. It shouldn't be that we have to kind of fit into what the brand's vision is. It's about you kind of finding brands that are building clothes that are for your body, right? So it's about knowing your measurements and knowing what products are the right fit for your body shape, not necessarily conforming yourself to what the brands are doing.
Jen Porter (44:16)
Yeah.
less.
Yeah, and you know, thinking about the awareness raising, would it be best for people to send your website to their favorite brands or maybe they know people who are leaders at these organizations? Is that the best way to let them know about what the body scan is?
Janice Tam (44:47)
Yeah, you can absolutely share a website or if you'd like to reach out to me directly, you can always email me at janice at true to form dot fit. I'd be happy to chat with you chat with your friend who works in the industry and just share more and see if there could be a good fit. Absolutely.
Jen Porter (45:01)
Yeah, make an introduction. Okay,
so everybody check out the software. So do your own body scan. I'm gonna do it. I'm excited to just know more. And I can't wait for more of this to be.
more of your software to be plugged in to all the brands that we love. let's put pressure, let's invite, I like to invite, let's invite companies to really consider having the software be part of it because it's only going to help with sales and, you know, to your point conversion, lower returns and have more customer satisfaction. So keep going. I love it. Hello.
Janice Tam (45:35)
Absolutely. Thanks so much, Jen. I
Jen Porter (45:40)
We love
Janice Tam (45:40)
will.
Jen Porter (45:40)
what y'all are doing and I can't wait for it to continue to take off. thanks so much for listening and watching and in the meantime, until the next episode, the lioness in me sees the lioness in you.
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