Walking Each Other Home: A Death Doula’s Guide to Life | Shawna Barlette
Jen Porter (00:00)
Hey, Lioness, welcome to the show, Lioness Conversations, where we help women be brave to lead with confidence and joy and to find your path to the most meaningful work of your life. I'm your host, Jen Porter, leadership and empowerment coach for women who are ambitious, heart-centered, and ready to change the world. You can find out more about my work in the Lioness community at jenportercoach.com. Today, we have a very special guest.
Shawna Barlette Shawna is a certified end of life doula and death literacy specialist whose life's work is to transform our relationship with death. With over six years of dedicated experience, Shawna compassionately guides individuals and their families through the great transition, providing essential support, resources, and education. As a true Death Walker,
She is on a mission to normalize conversations about death and dying, helping us face our fears with clarity, love, and understanding. Shawna, welcome to the show.
Shawna Barlette (01:09)
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's such an honor and privilege to be here and to be able to really bring that conversation and elevate that conversation.
Jen Porter (01:19)
Absolutely. So I want to give a little backstory. I'm not sure anybody was expecting this to be the topic of today's episode, but it's such an essential one and it is, it's one that none of us escape. I mean, every one of us has experience with death, dying, loss, questions, uncertainty, and we've walked with others who have died.
we have questioned what's gonna happen when we die and how many days we have in this life. So it's always present whether we're paying attention to it or not. And today is really about having the courage to really face it and look at it from different perspectives so that it loses some of that power that fear brings with the topic.
But Shawna, you and I met recently and we had the privilege of being in person together in a really sacred space. So I recently made a trip back home to North Carolina to visit my parents. My mom has transitioned into a mental memory care facility and I was going to visit her in that place for the first time, which was really, really
Shawna Barlette (02:10)
we did.
Jen Porter (02:31)
a big deal for me and you know to see my dad living alone for the first time in his life. At the same time what I didn't know was going to be happening was my best friend's mom was in the hospital and we weren't sure how many days she would have left and
Sherryl you were going to visit because you were supporting Sherryl and her mom in this phase of life as an end of life doula. And you had gotten connected to Sherryl recently, coincidentally through me, because I knew Sherryl was interested in this topic, not even for her own self, but for a potential...
Shawna Barlette (03:03)
Three.
Jen Porter (03:10)
and an exploration of could she be someone like you? Could she take on those skills and serve families and individuals in this way? And that's how she met you is I sent her your website, found it, because you're based in North Carolina in Raleigh. And you make that trip from Raleigh to Winston-Salem to be with Sherryl and her mom. And that's where we congregated and met for the first time.
Shawna Barlette (03:20)
All right. Yep.
Jen Porter (03:36)
and found out how much we have in common, but had amazing conversation about really supporting Sherryl in the space of caring for her mom and had an amazing conversation.
Shawna Barlette (03:45)
Yeah.
We did and I'm still supporting her Yeah, I'm still supporting I will probably I'm hundred percent sure that I will be supporting her all the way through to her transition as well and a little bit beyond Right because and as you had said when I first met Sherryl it was a hey, I'm looking for a mentor kind of kind of reach out right and so I spent
Jen Porter (03:52)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shawna Barlette (04:14)
quite a bit of time on Zoom, just talking through here's what it takes, here's, you know, just really kind of helping her solidify whether or not that was a path that she wanted to pursue. And as we started getting deeper and deeper in the conversation, she actually had another very close friend, I think, that is experiencing a very serious situation as well. And I helped her quite a bit with that, but.
As we're going through some of our Zoom calls, she suddenly said to me, my mother has stage four cancer.
I'm on immediate timeout, immediate timeout. We are going to abandon this conversation and I'm gonna help you with this. I want you to be 100 % present for what's coming, what's on the way. And so I transitioned from mentor to I'm your end of life doula. And it's a beautiful, place to be. I'm with you. I think that there's so much.
Fear that surrounds the topic of death, especially in our current society, the one that we occupy. Fear is really, I don't know, for lack of a better word, ego's last defense. It's what keeps us from crossing the road in front of a car. And so fear of the unknown, that's huge. We don't know what happens. I don't know. I'm a death doula and I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
All I do know, like you had said, is every one of us on every single one of us, we're born, we live, and we die. And it's a very normal and natural part of our human experience right now. So my whole, what I want to do is to help normalize that process and to support it and to witness it and to provide like that space. I like to hold space for people to just really experience probably
Yes, very scary, but the most beautiful thing that they may ever experience.
Jen Porter (06:06)
I remember you said that when we first met that you called it beautiful and I was like, tell me more about that because I'm a person who I'm open. It's like, I know how I see the world right now and that's not it, but I know it's possible. So help me see from a different perspective. So what is that beauty about?
Shawna Barlette (06:10)
Like, what's the...
I so we like we a lot of the dualists that I work with and know liking this just liking death to a birth experience. So you've got these two bookends. Right. So you labor through birth. Right. It's not easy. It's hard work. It's painful. It's scary. It's a lot of different emotions all coming in. You're changing from one thing to another. All of this is happening. And then you're handed a baby. Hopefully.
Right? Your life changes right then and that's a beautiful experience. Death is very similar. It has a labor process that we go through. And when we're fearful, we're not present with the experience. We're not like really embodying everything that is happening. And we're not like really allowing the family and our loved ones to be there with us and to experience this
this process, this labor that's occurring. So your body will begin to, know, it'll do a, it goes retrospective, you begin to think about your life. I want to really foster that, you know, hold space for let's really dial in on what am I about? What was my life about? What is my legacy? What am I leaving behind? You know, what do I need to tell people? How am I gonna be remembered, basically?
And then as your body begins this labor transition towards the deathing process, it goes through a pretty normal kind of shutdown process. Not everybody does it exactly the same, but there's some universal ways that our body, just the same as when we go from being an amniotic fluid into breathing air, then we begin to shut our systems down and we go inside ourselves, right?
And then when we transition to me, that is just, I want to create space for that to be a beautiful moment. And it truly can be if you take that time ahead, as you're going into it to really let's just open this up and let's talk about it because fear is what prevents us from talking about it.
Jen Porter (08:35)
Yeah, I can definitely see that. If fear were not present, we could experience it completely differently.
Shawna Barlette (08:43)
completely. If you take away fear, and fear is, part of why I think I'm effective as a doula is I grew up in fear. Fear of retribution, fear of punishment, fear of rejection, you just you name it. And I had all kinds of fear. And it wasn't until I was a younger adult, my early 20s, that fear came knocking on my door really hard.
and made me sort of sit down and take a look at how do I approach fear and how do I prevent fear from like ruling my life, right? Because fear can. Fear can creep in and just paralyze you. ⁓
Jen Porter (09:19)
Absolutely. And it rots us
and it can steal things. Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (09:24)
All of the
above. I mean, and I think I had told you earlier, I had a hospitalization experience after a panic attack in downtown San Francisco, thinking I'm having a heart attack. I'm dying. I wasn't dying. But that led me down this like huge education seeking out what in the world just happened. What is a panic attack? What is the physiological response? So there's a huge physiological response to fear.
Right? You epinephrine, adrenaline, all of these things that make you just sort of tense up. And in death, in death, that tenseness prevents you from having a very gentle, a very gentle release. My goal is to get you nice and relaxed. Yes. Yeah. And so when you're tense like that, like I'm fearful, I'm afraid, I'm scared, I don't know what's happening. My body hurts, this hurts, that, that. When you're there, you're A, you're not present, right? You're inside yourself.
Jen Porter (10:01)
Okay.
and
Shawna Barlette (10:15)
trying to
address all this fear, when you can relax. And I use lots of different complimentary techniques to get you to relax, right? Let's just dial it down. You might have witnessed some of that while we were visiting. to kind of, let's just bring it down. Because I want that person to find that space using my, I just compassionately will give you, I will hold space for you to find that. Because it's sort of this like, it's this ancestral thing.
It's not something that we invented. We did not invent death in this, right? This is all of us forever, right? So I want to try to bring sort of that, you some ritual in, soul site in there, not just for your body, but for the energy essence that's within people, right? Let's get to that. Death is like the most level playing field you'll ever find. Doesn't care who you are, right? It does not, doesn't matter.
So it's not going to be like, I'm going to take all these cool things with me. Now let's get down to just your soul essence. And what are you believing? What do you think is going to happen? Because I'm going to help you find that. That's what I do.
Jen Porter (11:22)
Hmm.
What I observed is that you were, when we were in the hospital room with Sherryl's mom, who I love dearly, because we grew up together. were on the same dirt road. Our parents are still on that same dirt road. And we've known each other since we were both about three years old. And so I've known her, I love her mom.
Shawna Barlette (11:36)
I know you do. Yeah, know you do.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (11:52)
her mom is an extension of her. mean, it's just, it's, yes. What I observed is that you were affirming and validating and getting curious about how Fran was, what she was thinking, what she was feeling and affirming all that. And now I liken it to what, what I do in coaching. Same thing. It's, I you.
Shawna Barlette (11:55)
Yeah, she's a wonderful lady. Yeah.
Mm hmm. It's the same thing.
Jen Porter (12:18)
And I'm affirming
this experience that you're having. And I'm getting curious about you and it so that you can stay present to it. So that you can do is like we just we try to push things aside. I don't want to look at it. don't want it. But to give it that space and that breath to say no, we're here. I want to hear what you
Shawna Barlette (12:28)
Mm-hmm. It, it, yep.
Right.
Just let
it blossom. Yeah. It's absolutely true. And I think that the difference between like maybe you and I, well, maybe not you, but most people, most people, and especially families, especially loved ones, is that their own personal fear and belief system is what keeps them from doing this. I'm not going in there. I'm not going to talk about death and dying. Right?
Jen Porter (13:00)
Totally.
Shawna Barlette (13:05)
because it challenges them too. So part of what I do is mediate those conversations, talk to one, the patient, and then I'll look right at the family member and say, so what do you think about that? And I'm providing that safe space. And you saw it, it's safe. And I, like you, am very skilled in listening. I have spent...
Jen Porter (13:07)
Exactly.
Wow.
Shawna Barlette (13:31)
a year answering the suicide prevention hotline and got some pretty serious training on listening skills doing that. And so I bring all of that like you do to the party, know, react, you know, just like active listening or reflective listening or pausing. mean, just, and I find that the more that you pause, the more, especially with this topic, cause it's such a difficult topic, the more you pause, the more space that you're creating.
for them to feel safe to speak. Tell me what your fear is.
Jen Porter (14:04)
And I want to pause on that point, speaking of pause. And by the way, pause is one of the most effective things in coaching too. ⁓
Shawna Barlette (14:07)
Thank
Yeah, here
too.
Jen Porter (14:11)
When you're giving the space to pause, it allows that person to have space to actually understand what's happening because we don't always know, right? It's not like the answers right here that are on the tip of our tongue. We have to actually concentrate a little bit to see what are we experiencing? What am I feeling? And what are the thoughts that are going through my mind right now?
Shawna Barlette (14:23)
No.
Jen Porter (14:36)
But I also think resistance is at play here, particularly in the dynamics among the parties involved. know, every family has their own dynamics and ways of being. And it's not natural. It's not typically natural to lean into these kinds of vulnerable conversations because of those dynamics that are typically at play. And so
Shawna Barlette (14:41)
It is, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
⁓ yeah.
Jen Porter (15:02)
resistance that's coming from all parties, right? It's like the person that is dying may be resistant, show vulnerability to their loved ones because they're trying to be still strong for loved ones. The loved ones don't want the person to be scared and so they're changing the subject and talking about the weather, you know? So there's that resistance ⁓ to these kinds of
Shawna Barlette (15:23)
yeah.
It's quite true.
I actually, and I think this happened before you arrived. Again, it's dynamics. It's a big deal for a death doula because I deal with family and the dying at the same time. And that's the family dynamic is a whole nother topic. Probably could talk for four hours about what happens when you, and especially in a dysfunctional family.
Right? Especially when you grow up, you have dysfunction and suddenly your parent is dying. Okay, well, we've all these other issues we never dealt with. And now this is happening. So it's a really difficult dynamic to deal with as an outsider. So the way I approach that, and I know you don't really get involved with the families, maybe, I will go one-on-one. Right? I typically will have one-on-one talk first with my client.
In this case, that would have been Sherryl's mom. talked to her privately to give her that space to come. So I am creating a container and I'm going to use that word when I saw you creating a container and that's her container and we're going to talk here. And then I have took, I did take Sherryl out of the room and we went and had a nice coffee and we can have a completely different conversation, right? That she may or may not follow up with. And in her case, no, but that's very normal.
That's very normal. And I recognize that, right? That this is the dynamic, right? And then I've even seen the two of them, like not in this case them, but the parent or the dying person and the loved one just, and it's really the ability to read a room. That's kind of what it boils down to. And I'm pretty good because I spent a decade in human resources. So I'm really good at, you know, I can read the room and I can see that we're going to go sideways here and I'm going to, whoop, okay.
Interject and we're going to move a different direction because my My goal is not to upset anyone My goal is to just witness and to help by offering, you know education and clarity and most of all that space that they need to process what's happening and Sometimes it doesn't happen at all on a given visit Sometimes when I show up The client will say I don't want to talk about it and I'm like, okay. Um, what's your favorite recipe?
because that's really, again, validating that I know that you don't want to talk about it. I know that it's a hard topic, but let's talk about your favorite recipe. And maybe at the end of that, then after they've trusted that I'm not going to blow them up on anything. So let's circle back to that, right? So it's just really an ongoing conversation that I love to have. It's my favorite thing to do is to sort of like help people just understand how normal this is and how
Jen Porter (17:56)
Mm-hmm.
Shawna Barlette (18:09)
The opportunity, there's so much opportunity, even just opportunity to resolve some of this dynamic issues between families. That's opportunity, right?
Jen Porter (18:19)
Do you find, this might be a strange question given the topic, but do you find that the people involved actually have the same goal or are goals established? For example, what do you really want out of this experience?
Shawna Barlette (18:32)
Yeah,
they're very rarely the same goal. It's very rare. And it's because everybody's bringing a different set of values and morals and ethics and fears to the party. So it's like inviting a bunch of strangers to a big party. That's not my focus. this is, so if you've been on my website, you saw, know, the scene of death is a sacred place. It's a doula's job to protect it. My focus is on finding out what
Jen Porter (18:37)
Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (18:57)
Does that person, my client, that patient, the one who is dying, what do you want? And it's my job to make sure that you get what you want. I can't tell you how many times, and it happens almost all the time, where there's a difference, a disconnect between what that patient wants and what the kids want. Almost always. Almost always. Well, I'll give you an example. Yeah, I'll give you a couple of examples.
Jen Porter (19:03)
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
What is that? ⁓
Shawna Barlette (19:25)
So one of the biggest ones was I did a session with my patient and we went through, as they start to talk, I start to find out more. What do you want? Do you want to be buried? Do you want to be cremated? Do you want to have a service? Do you want flowers? Where do you want to be when you die? Do you want the lights on? Do you want the lights off? Do you want candles? Do you want people flowing in, right? Or do you want just one or two? So those are the kinds of questions and things that I'm trying to find out so that I can honor.
their wishes when they no longer can speak for themselves. And so I had this conversation, I had all this stuff written down and I get on a Zoom call with the two daughters who are like this. So they, with each other, they had a dynamic that was just unresolved childhood issues that they carried into adulthood, right? And I was like, okay, this is not gonna be easy. And it wasn't easy.
Jen Porter (20:06)
with each other.
Shawna Barlette (20:18)
And as I'm talking through all this, one of them was like, yeah, yeah, it sounds great. This is what we're going to do. And the other one is like, I don't believe you. I'm like, really taken aback. What do mean you don't believe me? I don't think she said any of that. She's very religious. She always went to church. She's saying all these things, right? And I'm like, looking at my paper going, can I just fax this to you? Because that's not what she said.
I just think you're putting words in her mouth. I mean, really was challenging me. And I said, yeah, and I just really said, you know what? I don't make any of this stuff up. That's not who I am. I'm not here to write down a bunch of things and make it up and then try to sell it to you guys. I'm here to, and I'm like feeling like I'm having to explain, you what does a death do? Right? To this day, was...
Jen Porter (20:42)
Yeah.
distrust.
Shawna Barlette (21:05)
still doesn't think that that's what she wanted, but it's like, that's the sort of thing that can happen. It's really, and for me, it's like, I want to be able to, so you can kind of see what I want to do. I want to be able to get to a place where I had that conversation and I know what that person, deepest, deepest desires are. And I try to make that happen. And then I can end, I end up with like,
kids, usually kids, not so much a spouse. I haven't seen it so much with a spouse because they like know this person, right? They really know them. It's a different dynamic with a kid saying, usually an adult, like, no, not going to do that, right? So it's like a big one. If somebody says, I want to be cremated and the kids say, well, I'm going to violate that and I'm going to bury her.
Jen Porter (21:50)
Hmm
Shawna Barlette (21:51)
I have a problem with that. I have problem with that. That's not what they said. So that's the kind of thing that, that's part of bringing clarity into sort of that death experience. So it behooves me, just like you, to get them to trust me enough to be able to reveal this to me in a way that's what they want. So there's, it's like, what do you wish to have happen? And I even start a conversation like that by saying some crazy, crazy things, but make them feel like,
We can have fun here. Like, hey, do you want to be on the beach? Because I will drive you there. Right. And they're like, really? So it's, you have to kind of like, tried to bring humor in. I tried to bring stories and I try to make it sound so ridiculous that I'm willing to do that for you. Right. If you tell me you want to lock the door and no one comes in here, but one person, then I'm going to stand at the door like this and you're not coming in. And they trust that I'm telling the truth.
Jen Porter (22:28)
You
Yeah.
you're very protective of.
Shawna Barlette (22:49)
I'm
very protective of them, them first, family second, them first. That's my job. And that's what I think. The word doula, you might have looked at this, it's actually a Greek word. And it comes from a doula word. It's like a Greek word that means a woman who serves, right? It's ancient. It has existed in various forms throughout all history and all cultures. There's almost always been a woman.
in rare cases, a man who really do support and walk people to a transition, been there forever. And that's kind of what I feel like we need to bring back into our society. We went sideways during the Civil War. That's when we went sideways. We stopped doing that. We stopped having people, our grandparents, we had multi-generational households. ⁓
Jen Porter (23:27)
and
Yes.
Shawna Barlette (23:39)
People were born, lived and died in that house. You were probably laid out on the dining room table. In fact, Sherryl's mom gave me a story just like that. Just like that, with someone in her family that she remembered. And I'm like, you're the first person I know that has said that. The first person where somebody was laid out in the house. I'm like, that's where I wanna go. Yeah.
Jen Porter (23:49)
with her.
Wow.
It's generations.
Shawna Barlette (24:03)
That's where I want to go. So yeah, I'm kind of on a little bit of a mission, an education mission, a help, I want to help people mission, but I also feel like we need to bring a lot of that, that, that, personal care and that compassion back to normalize this process that we will all see.
Jen Porter (24:20)
You know, people have compared, they've called me a doula just in the coaching space. I've also studied spiritual direction where it's likened to a doula where you're holding space, but you're not the expert. You know, and it's that, that's, I'm thinking about the medical system and thinking about the difference between a hospital stay and a doula. So,
Shawna Barlette (24:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jen Porter (24:47)
And
I know we need both of those things, but at a doula and in coaching, we see the client as the expert. The client holds the wisdom of their own life. And so it's not me coming in or you coming in saying, these are the steps, this is answer. It's helping to draw out what is already inside of that person. And now what I think is happening
Shawna Barlette (24:56)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
No.
That's right.
Jen Porter (25:13)
is we have lost the ability over generations is what I mean to trust the wisdom that's within us and to trust ourselves. So we've given that away. We've given our power away to others. Specifically, I think about what happens in the medical world where we just listen to the doctor, the doctor tells us, and then there is a treatment.
Shawna Barlette (25:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (25:40)
and we submit ourselves to a treatment. A doula looks at, like in a birthing doula, they look at the mom as you hold the wisdom for this entire process. This baby holds, know, this eternal wisdom, this ancient wisdom is within this little baby who hasn't even been born yet. This baby knows what to do.
Shawna Barlette (25:43)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. That's right. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Jen Porter (26:05)
This
mom knows what to do. She needs to be strengthened and encouraged and empowered in her own being to know that she's got what it takes to deliver this baby. This baby is gonna come out knowing what it needs to do.
Shawna Barlette (26:07)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I will add just to close that loop, our body knows what to do to die. There's no mystery. Our body knows what to do. And if we just let it do and create that space for that to happen, that's what I mean by a beautiful transition. We know what to do. You're right. We give up so much power. And like I said, I think the civil war started that.
Men started to die a long way from home and momma's wanted them back. And there were some people in the world that branded themselves undertakers and then later funeral directors. Well, I can accomplish that. can embalm your baby and I can send your baby home. And that's what started that. That's where embalming began in the United States.
Jen Porter (27:00)
is that where embalming began?
Shawna Barlette (27:08)
Obviously there was embalming done in Egypt, right? There were different cultures that have done that, but in the United States, that's when it became sort of this like a medically universally accepted kind of way of preserving a body to transport it back home for a burial. ⁓
Jen Porter (27:22)
You know, my husband
and I won a natural burial and it's really his thing that now I'm like, yeah, dust to dust. But it's, I literally just researched last week where that's possible because it's hard to find. Now there are three places in Colorado.
Shawna Barlette (27:27)
Mm-hmm.
You can
call me and I'll give you all the details later.
Jen Porter (27:44)
Yeah, but
there are three places in Colorado where that's possible. And I'm curious what all of that involves. But it's way more natural than being pumped full of fluids.
Shawna Barlette (27:48)
Mm-hmm.
Well, and that's bad for the, I mean, it's bad for the environment, it's bad for you. They call it a green burial, just so you know. And I do tell people, and this is part of what I work with people. I know about 10 different ways to dispose of a body, right? Including, I know it's like crazy, I know all these things, but, and I lay that out for people, I actually do, because I feel like we are missing choice. So to continue my story is once we've got funeral directors sort of like, you know, this is what we do.
There was a period of time, I think it was around like the Victorian era, where the funeral directors, and I won't say bad things, but I can think bad things, began to really protect their own business model by telling people, you know, there's a lot of disease in bodies and you don't want to do that. And, you know, it's bad and let us take care of it. And so they started, I think, that natural, that fear progression.
Like, whoa, what? Right? Right? And so people here today being afraid of a body. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Cause I have a lot of people have asked me, so what's going to happen when I walk back in the room and I'm like, so they're going to look like they're sleeping, right? And nothing's going to happen. And I did counsel Sherryl on this, nothing for at least four hours before the first real physical sign of anything happening. It's like nothing's going to.
Jen Porter (28:48)
being afraid of.
Shawna Barlette (29:12)
It's not a bad thing. It's a pretty much a okay thing. But I do tell people that, or I see people that once somebody has died, my gosh, we only do, they're only aware of we're gonna bury them or cremate them. That's all they're aware of. And okay, so in cremation, you actually have two kinds. There's fire cremation and water cremation called aquamation, which is better for the environment and better for you.
Jen Porter (29:28)
Right.
Shawna Barlette (29:39)
Same process, same result, right? It's still, everything's the same. So I can give all that information to people as part of, and I'm mostly to the families and as part of what I'm trying to accomplish when I'm having an engagement with somebody, this is what I want them to know, right? And then they can make that decision. Like you said, they hold the wisdom. It's their wisdom, not mine. I'm just the person who's gonna bring the education to the party. I've even worked with
a family who's like a black family, right? And they're very, very, very, I love their celebration of life. I love it. It's really fantastic. But well, we have to call the same funeral director that my grandma used and my great grandma and their friends of the family. And I'm like, okay, so how much did that cost? Right? Well, we had to get a loan because it was $15,000. I've had that happen. I had another woman who was from Pakistan.
and her and her husband were there when mom was dying and they said, well, you know, we were told that we had to go to this particular funeral home. You know, we were told that and I'm like, I don't know who told you that, but let's step out in the hall and have a conversation. Right. Because they're like, well, we can't afford that. And I'm like, so let's have a conversation. I'm going to give you all the options. Here's all your options. Right. Names, addresses, phone numbers. Right. You don't have to.
I can't, don't know if it's, I think it's fear. I really think it's like, I don't know what to do. don't want to talk about it as well. So let's just do what everybody else has done. Right? We just don't know. And that's where I come in.
Jen Porter (31:03)
Well, we're not a quit.
But it's...
It seems like, Shawna, you help with logistics, like literal decision making, but how do you help with the, you must help with the emotional piece too.
Shawna Barlette (31:15)
Yep. Yep.
Definitely.
It's, I think, what's the word I'm looking for? The best word I have is presence and compassion. I mean, I'm just, and I don't need to say anything. And another big thing that I'm big on, I did want to mention this today is, and I can do it to right now, is touch. Amazing what touch does. It's absolutely amazing. I did find out I worked for hospice for two years.
And because they have like the medical world, they have rules, they have regulations. It's okay. I mean, we need them for certain things, right? But for death, no. Unlike a normal death, I want to check them out of the hospital and take them home. I was so wanting my Sherryl's mom to, let's get her out of here. Let's get her home. But what I did find working with them, and I have gone through an evaluation with somebody, know, as a doula, I was evaluated and she was blown away. She's like, my God, you've touched them.
Jen Porter (31:49)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (32:13)
Of course I do. They can't. I'm, and you see, I will, as the first thing I do, I want to touch you. I want to hold your hand. I want you to feel safe and loved and cared about, right? And then I will even bring children that are standing at the doorway, come closer. Right? Let's start that movement back towards normalization of death and dying. Let's start right now. Let's start with you, right? Because then they will grow up.
Jen Porter (32:15)
Yeah.
Yes. Yes. ⁓
Shawna Barlette (32:43)
And they won't be the ones that are going to stand at the back of the church going, I can't even look in a casket. No, they're not going to be that. They're going to be the ones that are going to be celebrating that person's life. That's what I'm here for. That's my life purpose, to just touch one person at a time. So it's touch, presence, and compassion. And the rest of it is, I help with all that other stuff because I've got a big background in that.
Jen Porter (33:06)
What do you do when a client, meaning the person who's dying, says to you, I'm terrified?
Shawna Barlette (33:13)
Well, first of all, just like you, I'm going to want to talk about it. Right. I had a client who I was with her for a year, stage four cancer client. And that whole year, when I say we talked about recipes, we talked about recipes. She had worked as a orderly in a hospital her whole life and felt like she had no worth and no value. My life was nothing.
I just emptied bedpans my whole life. So I spent a year like, and when I was done with her, believe me, she was queen of the May. Like I'm the most incredible person in the world. Of course you are, right? Because you existed, right? I mean, you were here. So I was able to get her there, but she was still terrified of death. And she had a really heavy religion, really heavy, which came to play at the end.
Jen Porter (33:39)
my goodness.
Shawna Barlette (34:00)
but she went all the way up to the last week and then she didn't want to talk about it. Don't want to talk about it. And I don't make them talk about it. I really don't. I'm not, okay, you have to tell me why you're afraid. I don't, right? Because it's their experience, not mine, right? Like you said, they're the experts and if they don't want to talk about it, it's okay. But I want them to know that you have, I'm here, right? I'm here. And I asked her, do you want me to be here when you die? And I use real words because this is the real world. ⁓ Do you want me here when you die? And she said, yes.
Jen Porter (34:25)
Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (34:29)
Okay, so the day before she died, was the day before after a year of working with her, she knew me well, I knew her well. She's like, come closer. So get right up to her. She goes, I'm scared.
And I was like, you don't need to be afraid. I'm here with you. I promised you I'd be here. We don't need to have a conversation about why are you afraid? I can see that you're afraid. That happened with Sherryl's mom. You might've been there. Her forehead furrowed and I said something and I just massaged her forehead. I said, I can see that there's something going on. Like I can see that in your face. And let me just, let's just relax a little bit.
And I just wanted to, again, just bring her to a space where if she wants to talk about it, I'm all ears. If she doesn't, I love you anyway. I'm here for you. So I don't know if that answered the question.
Jen Porter (35:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, I do remember that moment. And I'm going to get permission from Sherryl before we share any of this.
Shawna Barlette (35:28)
Yeah, we had a moment.
Yeah,
I thought about that. thought, she's going to hear some things that.
Jen Porter (35:38)
before so she can give permission. But I remember the fee she was able to name the fear her mom and it was it wasn't about her.
Shawna Barlette (35:47)
It wasn't
Jen Porter (35:48)
about the others that she was leaving behind.
Shawna Barlette (35:50)
the ones I'm
leaving behind. And it was really hyper-focused on one of them. Because I actually questioned her about that at house. I'm aware that you're going to need to ask for permission. But I will also say, because I thought this through too, and this is how I run my practice, we're not using full names here or locations. Well, I think you did. But it's pretty anonymous. I talk about all my clients.
Jen Porter (36:09)
Yeah, and
one of my greatest values is honoring people. And so I'll have her listen to it so she gets to be empowered to decide what she
Shawna Barlette (36:15)
No.
Yeah, I think it's important. Yeah,
she's learning too. But I really, and you heard me tell her this at the table, want her to be present for this and not even think about the others. She'll definitely will absorb. She told me that. She says, I'm absorbing. And I said, I know you are.
Jen Porter (36:38)
You know,
one of the things that I walked away from our conversation feeling was way more peace just to know that a resource like you exists in the world, truly. Because when we go through anything hard, knowing the resources that are available to us is so empowering. And I always thought
Shawna Barlette (36:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jen Porter (37:03)
it's some, know, death is something that can be terrifying. Like when I think about losing my people, it can be really terrifying.
and it's something that we have to go through on our own.
and then we have to figure out how to grieve.
Shawna Barlette (37:19)
Yeah.
Jen Porter (37:20)
And so what,
and I know I interviewed the grief gal, Rachel, 10 penny McGonigal and beautiful work that she does. There's a podcast episode with her that's incredible, but that's after that's the loss that after. And so what you feel then was there's someone that is equipped that can actually walk with me through the process when I'm in that place.
Shawna Barlette (37:30)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (37:47)
of navigating someone that I love dying. And that was so reassuring. was like, my gosh.
Shawna Barlette (37:50)
Mm-hmm. They should, yeah. It's
powerful. That's very powerful. And no one should walk alone. And I will walk that path with people. And sometimes I actually, during active dying process, we will go on a imaginary walk. Actually, we'll take you on a walk with me. Like, let's go for a walk.
and we're gonna walk into the forest. So I'm just talking to them because hearing is the last sense to go. The person is usually comatose, but I'm very aware that they hear me very well.
Jen Porter (38:16)
What is that?
Hmm.
And we can still feel
touch, right? Can they usually still feel touch?
Shawna Barlette (38:32)
Sorry.
I believe that they can. These are my beliefs. I don't have empirical proof of that. And I don't think there's empirical proof that people hear. But I've had enough experiences with people that have been sort of unresponsive and comatose where I had one woman who was comatose that enjoyed listening to Elvis Presley music. So I would play Elvis Presley music on this cute little speaker and
I'm looking at her little feet were going like this. And I'm like, yeah, don't ever tell me that you can't hear. Right? Because I don't believe that. All right. I believe you can. So I'm going to touch. I'm going to hold their hand and I'm going to tell them because they are transitioning at that moment. Let's go on a nice walk. And I'm telling this big, long story about, OK, there's a path that we can take. Let's let's go. maybe there's a.
bench up there. Let's take a sit for a minute here and just kind of smell. Do you hear the bird? look, and there's a squirrel. So we'll take this really long walk right out for, you know, 20 minute conversation that I'm having with them and then bring them back. And I'm, you know, I can see the peace on their on them. I can see it right because people's facial muscles will all just start to kind of relax. Right. You can sense it. You can feel it. And then most often that's what gets beautiful for me.
It's really satisfying to actually help someone do this. And then they will just very quietly exit the world, exit their body. They'll just leave their body. And it's just like, wow. Wow. It's a powerful, powerful moment. Super, super sacred. So privileged and honored to be that person.
Jen Porter (40:16)
I want to emphasize this point for people that are listening, that it is possible to navigate that phase with peace. It is possible to go into these conversations and experiences without fear. It is possible. And to go in with...
Shawna Barlette (40:35)
It is. It's possible.
Jen Porter (40:38)
Love. mean, isn't that what we're carrying? Just carry love into the room. Carry love into the words we share. Just love.
Shawna Barlette (40:40)
Love. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's the whole thing. All of
it. All of it. I mean, that's my middle name, compassion. It's just compassion. It's non-judgment. And it's meet that person right where they are. It's not about me. Part of what has brought me to what I do is my husband's death.
And it was really a lot of anger and bitterness and a whole lot of things that I was feeling as we went into it. But as he was established in my house on hospice, right in my living room, and I realized, okay, this is he's dying. And I'm becoming the doula suddenly and the person who's his wife, this is my soulmate dying. And it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was like a ton of bricks. I was like, I'm not the one dying.
what's my problem? I'm not the one who's dying, right? He is. And so that's when I like, he got the best of everything that I could bring to create that experience for him. And really that freed me, right? So it's really, I'm a winner as well. mean, like I've done a lot of really difficult deaths, especially at the hospice home where they would require you to sit and talk with them.
like a psychiatrist after one that was difficult. And I would always walk in the room with this big smile on my face like.
Wow, I mean, it's just such a sacred moment. And like I said, I'm so privileged and honored to be invited into that space. But for me, knowing that I helped that person in some tiny little way, right? Achieve that peace, achieve that release, achieve that death that, know, a lot of people coined the phrase a good death. I don't know if that's the right word for it, you know, it's a good death. All death is death.
But I like the word more peaceful and easy release and you know, just whatever your belief system is wherever you think you're going. I've got I got you. I got you. I have your hand. I'm going to walk you to the door and I'm going to let go.
Jen Porter (42:41)
So I think people that could listen to you today would think, wow, she's really clear, confident. She is so at peace, not afraid of anything. But it doesn't sound like that was your story most of your life. You had tremendous fear. had a panic attack that landed you in ER. You have experienced
Shawna Barlette (42:58)
No.
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (43:05)
I would consider traumatic death, you get to say whether it was or not, death of intimate loved ones, walked with people on the suicide line, the prevention line. So how in the world did all of your experiences lead you to this work?
Shawna Barlette (43:14)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
I've been thinking about this for a week now because I knew this conversation was going to occur. feel like my DNA sort of was, I was already wired to walk this path, but just didn't really either know it or was able to do this death work until his death. was really, that was sort of the catalyst. But along the way,
My experiences had a horrible childhood. I left home at age 15. My parents were divorced, sat us on the couch and said, we're getting a divorce. What do you want to do? Who do you want to live with? And it was the first time in my life I found my tongue and said, actually, I don't want to live with either one of you. And I moved out. I was 15 years old. I got married at age 18. I had a premature baby. She was born at seven months.
Jen Porter (43:59)
Whoa.
Shawna Barlette (44:09)
And I had an experience with the medical world that was shocking. Just, here I had a new baby, had to go home without. And just all of that could die, not die, gonna die, not die. She's here today, she's the mother of my three grandchildren and I'm very lucky to have that. And then I had my first husband, I had a crazy divorce. I met my second husband and had an affair. And I'm like, so that was the first time in my life when I said, you know what?
This is what I mean by the thing. I have that quote here. If you had one shot or one opportunity to seize everything you ever wanted in one moment, would you capture it or would you let it slip? And that was the one moment when I first saw him, I am not gonna let this slip. And I knew it was gonna lead to a messy divorce. I knew all of that, right? It's like, but I need to be with that man. And we spent 38 years together. This is my soulmate. And I was married, I had a child and I knew that I needed to be with that person.
Jen Porter (44:54)
This was the soulmate.
Shawna Barlette (45:01)
And again, it was like, it's addressing that fear, that guttural fear, right? And grabbing that one thing, am I gonna let this slip or not? I would pine for the rest of my days if I had done that. So I did that. Then my first husband died of a heart attack at 28. My first experience with shaky death, right? Death. Then I decided that, well, my sister was very suicidal. She had eight attempts.
on her life and my mom was scared out of her mind. And so my mom kept calling me, you have to do something. And I'm like, what do you think I'm supposed to do? So I'm full of fear, right? And this is while I'm having panic attacks, because my husband had kidnapped my child to get back at me. And it was just this messy, messy, messy thing. And so I'm a mess. I try to put myself back together. I actually went and took a class at college to understand what is anxiety, right?
How does this work? And I really started to understand sort of that physiological response that you know fear What is fear do to you? What does anxiety actually do to you? And when I started to address that whole I understand that epinephrine and adrenaline dumping in my system and you know when you have panic attacks and anxiety Epinephrine and adrenaline are normal drugs in your body But when you're suffering from panic attacks, they don't dissipate like they do a normal person. They take hours That's what makes you all kind of
Jen Porter (46:17)
Wow.
Shawna Barlette (46:17)
So my
sister was suicidal. I decided to go to suicide prevention and ask them like, hey, can you give me some training because I'm having to, I'm getting these phone calls and these aren't easy phone calls. And I know that the people on this podcast are, you know, understanding we're talking about death. I got a phone call one night that said, I have a gun in my head. What are you going to do about it? Wow. And I had already gotten the training and I'm like, so I want you to hang up and call 911. All So I was not.
freaking out, right? I was like thinking clearly and tried to help and you know, just kind of so she ended up living but later did die. So I spent a year talking to suicidal people and that taught me a lot about just listening and being present. You don't have to do anything except answer the phone when it comes to that. Just answer the phone. Then they're connected with, okay, somebody there. There's somebody there, you know, and I've heard all I've heard it all.
After that, things kind of settled down for a little bit, but then my husband, my soulmate, I discovered he was an alcoholic. And that was the longest five years of my life. And the last two years were the worst years of my life, the worst. Just watching somebody self-destruct, and I'm telling you, it's a light story because it's hospitals, it's rehabs, it's ambulances, it's fire department, it's the sheriff, it's all these people.
And then one day my daughter and I came in and found him on the floor. His eyes were bright yellow and I said, your liver's failed. We're done. I mean, just like that. It's like you're done. And we took him down to the hospital here and the doctor comes out and says, starts giving me whole line of crap, this medical crap. It's like, we can save him. We can get him on the transplant list. And I'm like, he's an alcoholic. He's not eligible for a transplant.
Okay, I want a hospice worker standing in front of me in the next five minutes and they they sent one in three minutes and I said and checking him out AMA I checked him out took him home he died six days later in my my living room and One of the hospice nurses had given me their badge and I remember this very clearly she he gave me his badge and said you're doing a better job than I am and I'm like, that's when I decided you know what I think I should be doing this
I think I'm the person. I'm starting to like figure out that all of these bad experiences, this, suffering, all the struggles, all of these things that are happening to me are there for a reason. And I felt, and I do feel this today. When I am aligned with my purpose, like a plumb bob, can't quite see it. So imagine a plumb bob going through your body, kind of like a Jenga sort of thing. When I am aligned with my purpose, I feel fantastic.
When I'm not, when something's out, something's out, something doesn't feel right. So the more I like, okay, I should be doing this, I should be doing this, the more I got to my life purpose. So I'm fully engaged in life purpose on purpose, because now I realized that everything in my life that has happened to me supports that and pointed the way on the path. So I draw on all of these experiences and that's what gave me, don't...
I'm not afraid of anything now because the other shoe's already dropped in my life. Many times. and after my husband died. Sorry.
Jen Porter (49:23)
When was
the last where you moved away from fear and more toward peace, I suppose?
Shawna Barlette (49:30)
Iron Man.
Iron Man. Yeah. Iron Man. Wow. I had a dream 10 years before Iron Man, an actual dream. And I'm thinking, what was that about? And I had never been to Hawaii.
Jen Porter (49:32)
Okay, tell me about
Also, so people understand Iron Man. Iron Man is a race.
Shawna Barlette (49:47)
Ironman It's a race. It's
a triathlon It consists of three pieces and you don't get any breaks in between them. A lot of people miss misunderstand this It's a two and a half mile open ocean swim. I'm out in the ocean for two and a half miles then you get out of the water you get on a bicycle and you ride for 112 miles out in the lava field and Then you get back and you run a marathon right?
Jen Porter (50:13)
26 months.
Shawna Barlette (50:14)
26.2 miles it it's a hundred and forty point six miles all together It's it's just a huge. It's huge. Yeah Yeah, I Had a dream that and I wasn't quite sure what it was about It's it's just it was kind of weird It's like a lot of people trying to help me do this this really big deal and I was like, huh I wonder what that is and then my husband and I went to Hawaii
Jen Porter (50:19)
Okay, so I just wanted to find a minute. then, so you have time.
Shawna Barlette (50:37)
For a vacation first time I'd ever been there and it happened to be during the Ironman competition So I'm standing on the corner watching all of this and I'm like, that's what the dream is about and I remember like these these triathletes the pros just kind of blowing by me and dripping sweat on me and I'm thinking man, let's preserve this shirt It was just so like wow. It was wow. It's like I need to do this I need to do this at all costs. Whatever it is. wait a minute. I don't know how to swim That was my first problem
I'm water phobic. Like I was totally scared, scared to death of water. I didn't own a bicycle. I was a runner. So I was already a runner. I'm like, I can do that. Right. I got to go learn how to swim. So I went back to California. We were living there and I hired a woman to teach me how to swim. A friend of mine teaches disabled children how to swim. And I'm like, you're it because I don't want to be in public. I'm terrified. I'm like this 40 year old. At that time I was 40.
And I'm like, I'm terrified. don't want to see this big person adult like, you know, freaking out crying in the pool, right? So she sticks me in this pool all by myself and I'm standing up to water up to here and she goes, are you okay? And I'm like, again, fear. like, I'm going to confront it right here right now. I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. I'm terrified. I just not crying. I'm terrified. Right. So about a year later and I'm actually swimming. I had an incident in the ocean.
Jen Porter (51:58)
Hmm.
Shawna Barlette (52:02)
with another coach who taught me how to do the ocean. It's a different place. It's a very scary place. And I always use a flotation device. And we get out like, you know, maybe a half a mile and she stops me and she looks at me and she teases me about this today. And she's like, so Shawna, what would it take for you to give me that flotation device? I mean, I'm like standing there for five minutes or I've tried water for five minutes. I'm like, I'm thinking this through. What would it take?
Jen Porter (52:26)
Okay.
Shawna Barlette (52:27)
So she's obviously got confidence in me that I don't have. Right? So I gave it to her. Right? So I did that. She taught me how to ride. We pulled up one day to do a test ride and she's in the wind is blowing bikes are laying over and I'm like, maybe we'll do it another day. And she said, get out of the truck. I love her. I was like, okay, I love her, you know, because she didn't let me cave into my own fears. Right.
Jen Porter (52:31)
Mmm.
You
Shawna Barlette (52:52)
So the race day showed up. I thought for sure I'm gonna throw up. I mean, I'm gonna throw up. And I said to my coach, huh? I was so nervous. I was really nervous. mean, cause you never put all three pieces together in training. Cause that's, it's a big deal, right? So I was very nervous and I had no idea what to expect. No expectations whatsoever. I just know this is gonna be a long day.
Jen Porter (53:02)
Were you, you were so nervous. You thought you threw.
Not that.
Shawna Barlette (53:19)
So he said the funniest thing to me goes well if you throw up just turn the other way and just kind of Get it away from everybody else and I'm like, okay. He's got an answer, right? Whatever so I like I do the swim two and a half miles and I'm thinking and I'm very like Zen about the whole thing every stroke I'm Feel great. I'm doing fine, right just to get myself through it when I got out of water
I go into the changing tent and the lady who's helping me, she's like, and I'm just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah about the swim, because I couldn't swim. had overcome this fear of water, right? Look at me. I can swim two and a half miles in the ocean. Oh my God. She goes, shut up, stop swimming and start biking. So she taught me the power of presence right there with that one single statement, be present. You're on the bike now. You need to do that. Right. So I go do that. I come back. it went really well. It like seven hours on a bike. It'll kill you. Trust me.
Then I get on the run and I'm running with this lady who's like, I was 50 at the time and she, I think was 74. That's like four years older than am today, 74. And I'm running with this woman and I get to like 13 miles in and I hit the wall. I'm like that, I'm done. I'm done. I'm like 12 hours into this mess and I am done. She goes, she kills me. She goes, honey. She's like from Texas.
honey, I so wanted to finish this race with you. I'll see you at the finish line. Okay.
Jen Porter (54:45)
You
Shawna Barlette (54:47)
And I'm walking, I'm like, I gotta walk. But I think she really gave me that, you know what, you can do it, right? You can do it, just walk it off and you'll be all right. So I did, but 14 hours and 56 minutes later, I crossed that finish line. And I'm telling you, it's the biggest thing in my life, knowing that I can draw on myself and what's inside of me to accomplish something that big.
Jen Porter (55:09)
Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (55:13)
And it's big, it's not trivial, that's a pretty big deal. And that's the world championships you have to actually qualify for, which I did. It's pretty big. that's, the Iron Man's mantra is anything is possible. When my husband was dying, somebody told me that you're an Iron Man. You can do anything.
A year later, my sister died of overdose and I was an Iron Man and I can do anything. And I went out there to help her. I I checked her out of the hospital too. I hate hospitals for that. She's dying. We're going to get her someplace safe. I think that that's right after those two deaths. And this is an important thing I wanted to get across is, and I have like the tattoos on me. There's a tattoo on here that says Amar Fati, which
Friedrich Nietzsche, it's a way of thinking. It's a way that you so it actually translates Latin to love your fate and it taught me how to Describe my life in ways that see suffering and loss Not only good but necessary Because I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today Had I not had all these really intense experiences and it took me a long time
to really step into that power, right? You know what? These aren't bad experiences. These are experiences that I've had that are very necessary and that I love. Like I look back and I'm very grateful for my husband's death. Sounds terrible and weird, but we had 38 really incredible years together. The death was hard. It was very hard, but I'm able to do hard now. Very hard, very hard.
I don't have any fears anymore. Been through a lot of it. And that's just one of the things. But it seemed like I was granted all of these experiences. Why am I having all these intense experiences, right? I think it's to help people. And when I feel aligned, again, it's like that plumbob thing when I really feel like, and that was the hard part for me stepping into this role as a death doula, was to step into it with humility.
Jen Porter (56:59)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Shawna Barlette (57:20)
And I don't normally talk about how I got here. Right? Not, it's not that at all. It's that I'm going to pull all of the experiences and all of the knowledge and all of the wisdom that I have to help you. And if I can help one person, just one, I'm happy. I'm aligned. And I know I helped more than one.
Jen Porter (57:24)
Mm-hmm.
I define the lioness, I used to define it as feminine strength, grace, and power. And I'm actually evolving how I'm defining it. I'm defining it more now as feminine strength, divine purpose, and love.
Do you feel that your lioness energy shows up when you're with people in this role as death doula? Or is it something different?
Shawna Barlette (58:04)
I think it's there all the time, Jen. It gets more intensified and it's more...
It's more focused when I'm with someone. Um, but I carry that into everything that I do. Like I have a cat and he gets it. Right. He gets that. He gets that from me. He gets that energy. Um, everywhere I go, I can be in the grocery store. Right. And if somebody needs help getting something off the shelf, I'm your go-to and I don't wait for permission.
Jen Porter (58:13)
Mm-hmm.
Shawna Barlette (58:39)
I'm your go-to. I'm supposed to be standing here. So yeah, it does get more, I think, crystallized. I'm trying to think of the right word, more focused, more like a magnifying glass, right? When I'm with somebody, I really pay attention to all the things that I need to bring to bear to be that lioness, to be that person, to be that strength. I do recognize that when I walk in the room, and you saw it,
I am the strength. I'm not looking behind me. I'm like, no, that's me. Right. And I come into the room like that. That is me. And I'm bringing that into the room for a reason. That is my purpose. That is my life calling.
Jen Porter (59:07)
Mm-hmm.
If someone is thinking about having a death doula help them, I guess maybe who is this, who would be well-served by an end-of-life doula? Who should be thinking about this?
Shawna Barlette (59:32)
Everyone, everyone, I'm going to tell you a little story to bring that home. I did a presentation at a library about death doula, about the doula heart. So what do we do? It was called myths and mysteries, right? Cause there's so many myths and mysteries surrounding this. And at the end I had a young lady, I think she was around 23 years old stand up. She's like, so I don't understand why I would eat and why I need to be here. I don't know why I would need to have advanced directives or power of attorney, which I do.
part of what I do. And I asked her, like, so you're on your way home tonight and you're involved in a traumatic car accident and they take you to the hospital and you're not able to speak for yourself. And she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, do your parents know what you want? No, that's why you need to talk to me. So you could be 20 years old. And yeah, let's start the conversation early.
Jen Porter (1:00:20)
Mm-hmm.
Shawna Barlette (1:00:26)
When I'm working with somebody who actually is dying, I want to work with the families because they're all hearing it too. They're hearing the same thing. For somebody who's like traditionally like, I need an end of life doula. You want to do a long before you want to talk to hospice and you may, some people don't elect hospice. I'd say the most optimum time would be you just got a terminal illness diagnosis.
Jen Porter (1:00:50)
you
Shawna Barlette (1:00:52)
Now what? Because it brings up the, so if you're asking yourself the now what question, my God, somebody says to a doctor says, get your affairs in order. What does that mean? Call me. I hope you figure out what that means.
Jen Porter (1:00:58)
Yeah.
So someone who would be the client, but also what about a family member who has a loved one who is dying or they're starting to get fearful and that they may only have a few years left.
Shawna Barlette (1:01:20)
I am most of the time I'm approached by the family. Most of the time. That's who's reaching out. Yeah. And they either have heard mom or dad come home or their loved one and say, I have a terminal diagnosis. I think I'm dying. Or you look like you're dying. know, for some reason it's in your head suddenly somebody's dying here. They're the ones that are kind of secretly. It's really weird. Not weird. It's just interesting to me. Humans are very interesting.
Jen Porter (1:01:26)
Okay.
Shawna Barlette (1:01:45)
They're the ones sending me a message. Can we talk? Of course we can. Absolutely. Anybody.
Jen Porter (1:01:49)
Yeah. So you're open to talking to anybody or do you have do you cover a geographic
area?
Shawna Barlette (1:01:55)
I have actually been a doula for someone in Florida and someone in Tucson, Arizona I have friends in Tucson so I was able to fly out and combine trips, but a lot of that work is done via zoom It's not the same. can't I can't touch you. I can't I can't give you a big hug, but I can support you The one in Florida they actually and it says so on my website If you pay me give me an airline ticket, I'm there
probably sleep on your couch or something. I went down to Florida, I think three, four times before she actually died to help. And I helped her dog die because she was dying. It was really sad. That was hard. So I'm a pet doula at the same time. I've done a couple, I've done three dog deaths. Two of them, and this is interesting, two dogs died during my client's deathing process. And I was there for both. The first one, the lady was in the hospital.
I took the dog to the vet, right? And after talking to her, here's what I'm going to do for you and took back some pictures and photos and stuff for her and made sure that we had a comfortable death. The second one, the one who was so afraid of dying, her dog, we put the dog down in her bedroom. So we had them come, we put the dog down, dying of same exact diagnosis. It was so ironic. Bone cancer again, like the dog is dying of bone cancer. was just like, I can't believe this is happening.
Jen Porter (1:02:53)
Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (1:03:11)
But after the dog died, so the dog was on the floor and my patient was in the bed. She's like I don't believe it Like I don't know what's happened. So we actually the vet and I picked the dog up and put it on the bed So it's real. Okay, this is real here here so Yeah, I've done three of those. So yeah, it doesn't matter if you're an animal a Child a human and I talked to children as well as part of this process. I will help them walk through What are your fears? Like what are you feeling?
I've got a couple of books that I work through with kids. So it's kind of everybody. It's everybody.
Jen Porter (1:03:42)
Okay.
And the Doula hearts, is that the website?
Shawna Barlette (1:03:47)
Yes, the do www the doula hearts.com
Jen Porter (1:03:51)
The Doula hearts. Okay, yeah.
Shawna Barlette (1:03:53)
And it's
educational in design. It's designed to be educational for all those people that, you know, if you're too afraid to talk to me, just read it. It's got a lot of more buttons on it. I want to know more about this, right?
Jen Porter (1:03:56)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jen Porter (1:04:25)
Yeah, yeah.
And you're trained as a doula and so there are like you across the country, the world, I'm assuming.
Shawna Barlette (1:04:39)
It's an international thing. And if people actually want more information, there's two organizations. One is NEDA, N-E-D-A, which is the National End of Life Duel Association. And then there's another one called INELDA, I-N-E-L-D-A, that's the International End of Life Duel Association. So it's a worldwide group of people, not just women, that this is what we do. Like I said, it's really...
Jen Porter (1:04:48)
time.
Shawna Barlette (1:05:04)
It's so awesome to watch this sort of rise up again, right? And just really, because we've always had it, but now it's beginning to gain popularity and people are hearing about it and, what is that? And, you know, what do you do? And all of the fun things. So, yeah.
Jen Porter (1:05:18)
So I would imagine
people listening that are curious and want to be more informed and empowered and equipped for whenever a need arises in their life because multiple needs will arise ⁓ over across our lifetimes. They can hear this from the standpoint and reach out to research more from the standpoint of I need help, my loved one needs help, my friend needs help.
Shawna Barlette (1:05:31)
Mm-hmm.
Jen Porter (1:05:46)
someone in their life might need these services and they may want to learn more about that. They also may be thinking, gosh, maybe I'm called to do that kind of work. And maybe even if they don't end up doing it as ⁓ profession, let's say, but just I can imagine that the courses would be equipping just for us to deal with our own lives.
Shawna Barlette (1:05:55)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, about
half the people I was with, I trained through University of Vermont, the Larner College of Medicine. And I'd say about half of them did this course for personal enrichment. So yeah, just personal enrichment. Some were just like, I just want to know about it. And it's great because it's very introspective. It really does teach you a lot about you, right? They don't tell you how to be a death doula. I feel like that's kind of innate.
Jen Porter (1:06:22)
Yes!
Shawna Barlette (1:06:37)
Right? You're kind of wired for that, but they do teach you about you. And then there were people who were like they were chaplains. lot of clergy do this so that they can, you know, be more equipped. it's typically, I think, the people that are the go-to people for when we are scared. Like, who would you talk to? Well, I'm going to go talk to my minister. Well, he may be trained. He might be trained. I mentor people. That's how I know Sherryl. Right?
Jen Porter (1:06:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (1:07:00)
We wouldn't know each other. I just met with another woman last week just to kind of and and some of times it pans out and some most a lot of time it's like oh wow okay thanks for giving me all that information not what I what not what I'm looking for and that's fine because I my job is just educate people you know hey you know do you have you know and I loved how Sherryl's mom said this and you'll have to get permission because she did say this she's just like she has the heart for this.
Jen Porter (1:07:17)
Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (1:07:28)
And she looked right at her and said, you can do this. Like, and that was the first time I met before you were there. Right. You can do this. My daughter has the heart for this. And she does. She does. But I want her to be there right now for mom. So it's such a one. Yeah. I talked to her. I just talked to her. So yeah, it's going to be, that one's going to be, it's going to be amazing. It really is.
Jen Porter (1:07:33)
Yeah.
She does.
Yeah, yeah, and she has beautifully and it's miraculous.
Yeah.
Shawna Barlette (1:07:55)
And I think a lot of that is because they have the support, right? That I think we all need and deserve. We all deserve that. mean, yeah. Yeah. thank you.
Jen Porter (1:08:02)
Yeah.
Thank you, Shawna. Thank you for
me to this work and just everything that you pour into being there for individuals and families, the dying and those that are supporting those who are dying and normalizing death and dying. We realize we don't have to be afraid. We can talk about these things and we can have peace about the whole.
Shawna Barlette (1:08:30)
We
can, we can. Yeah, it is. ⁓ I just gonna.
Jen Porter (1:08:32)
It's really amazing. Go ahead,
tell me.
Shawna Barlette (1:08:40)
I'm going to close with one of my favorite quotes. It's a Mary Oliver quote. She's a poet that I just adore. She said, someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this too is a gift.
Jen Porter (1:08:43)
Okay.
Shawna, what is your hope for where your work takes you?
Shawna Barlette (1:09:07)
I think for me, and I don't have any grandiose plans, I really...
It satisfies me. My purpose is to really touch one person.
And I said this earlier, I know I'm touching people. have a wall full of notes from people, right? But that's not my focus. My focus is one person. So if one person that listens to this today is touched, I've achieved my goal.
Jen Porter (1:09:35)
Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. It's good work. We do it for the one.
Shawna Barlette (1:09:41)
We do it for one and then the next one.
Jen Porter (1:09:42)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, beautiful.
Shawna Barlette (1:09:46)
Yeah. Now this has been
a great conversation.
Jen Porter (1:09:50)
Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks for everything that you're doing. And I do encourage people, don't wait. If you've got that sense of compulsion rising up to reach out, go ahead and do that because we all need to be more equipped for these important seasons of life that can be scary for most people. And if there's one of us walking into the room a little bit more equipped and ready.
to bring peace and love to these situations. That's a really, really good thing. So thedoulahearts.com, reach out to Shawna. It sounds like you're open to having conversations and sharing and educating. So I hope this episode has been enlightening and you're reflecting in ways that will really help you and your families and loved ones in the future.
In the meantime, the lioness in me sees the lioness in you.
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